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Big Question for Sun

It looks from the outside as though every spare resource that Sun has is going into JavaFX. JavaFX may or may not win against Flash/Flex/Air/Silverlight/Android/Ajax, but while Sun is concentrating on FX, it doesn't appear to be giving the Java language the updates it badly needs.

Maybe Sun sees Java as 'done'. OK, but the Java language has one of the largest developer communities in the world, and they'd like some direction. Where do Sun recommend they go for their server-side development needs in 5 years time?

Maybe Sun think we should change to JRuby, Scala or Groovy. Maybe there are updates to Java that I don't know about. If none of the above are the case, the community will eventually disappear into mish-mash of languages that doesn't have the strength of numbers.

3:19pm Update: tweaked last paragraph to make the point clearer.

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Posted by Joe Walker on 19 May 2008 13:35:45 BST #


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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Anonymous on 19 May 2008 13:47:07 BST #
How about using Java instead of some other language? Java still works. It isn't broken.
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Joe Walker on 19 May 2008 13:56:26 BST #
I'm not saying that Java is broken, however it's not as productive as many other modern languages. So either it needs some updating, or the community needs direction about where to get their next fix.
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Fabrizio Giudici on 19 May 2008 15:50:34 BST #
First, if you think that new languages are most productive, I think you really need to go with those languages. The fact the they leverage the same Java platform is a big plus. In fact I consider the JAva language pretty much stable and in its peak form; any major "improvement" will bloat it. Second, it's not that the community needs direction, it's up to the community to provide directions since when Java has been open sourced. A part of the community, in fact, has been providing directions towards the closure thing. Which are totally unneeded and bloating, IMO (see above), nevertheless it's an evidence that things are not static.
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Joe Walker on 19 May 2008 17:41:42 BST #
Closures is exactly my point. They're being worked on by (very smart) guys in their *spare time*. Languages with millions of users like Java should not be extended this way.

Open source is not a magic bullet where the community suddenly fixes everything, and *certainly* not complex things like language design.

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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Ignacio Coloma on 20 May 2008 13:28:56 BST #
It's very sad. JavaFX will not deliver anything close to Microsoft or Adobe products, but still they have a bigger chance of returning the investment than the things we as developers need the most. I cannot think of a single way Sun may benefit (with real cash, not just reducing costs) from implementing closures, for example. The Open Source model would help here, but I think it does not apply to Java as it should.
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Anonymous on 19 May 2008 19:25:00 BST #
"Java is not as productive as many other modern languages." I disagree. Java is plenty productive. Typing less doesn't mean you are more productive. All Closures and syntactic sugar like these do is allow you to type a little less. If you use an IDE, these aren't really necessary because the IDE eliminates lots of typing. If you aren't using an IDE, why do you care about productivity at all?
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from PRanjan on 20 May 2008 04:40:01 BST #
The push towards JavaFX is because Sun doesn't want to loose the desktop game. Once you're on desktop you can penetrate to many areas, clients and customers ( Just like MS Windows did ). As far as productivity is concerned, as a developer my constant fear is whether my code is robust, bug free and scalable ( as much as possible ) in my client's production system even though I had to type a little extra for it.
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Anonymous on 03 June 2008 19:45:41 BST #
Measuring productivity only by "typing less code" is only half of the equation. The IDE can write code faster than I can read. With dynamic languages you save time when you read "expressive code" (althought it can become cryptic code if you abuse the language). Take for example any operation over a collection in Java and compare it with groovy using closures.
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Anonymous on 29 July 2008 16:18:30 BST #
Productivity is also defined by how much time you spend on solving an issue (maintenance). Java's very good for that imo.
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Re: Big Question for Sun

Comment from Andrew Whaley on 10 November 2008 23:07:11 GMT #
Closures are only one thing that is missing - what about macros and continuations. And why does everything have to be an object whether it needs to or not. I agree with Joe, with the neglect of the core language and the proliferation of 'frameworks' attempting to workaround the limitations e.g. Spring people will drift away. Take a look at Scala or Scheme to see why Java will be relegated to the same pile as Forth, Algol, Pascal etc.

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